I will be adding a new link titled “Sandbox” in the right hand menu.
That link will get you to this page.
I had originally set up the “Reader Initiated Alert” page for ‘alerts’. I was thinking this, for instance, might be when a preferred stock is undergoing a temporary selloff and someone wants to let the population know about it quickly. Of course we all (including me) use the ‘alert’ page for general messaging.
I am requesting that we start using the Sandbox page for all general talk, and try to preserve the ‘alerts’ page for ‘alerts’.
I have had a screen up on one of my monitors all week where I see all comments – no matter where they are posted–it is a great page and I wish everyone had a page like that–believe me we all benefit from all the knowledge being shared. I don’t want to stifle any of the exchange of knowledge, but hope to get things a bit better organized by adding the Sandbox page.
5,479 thoughts on “Sandbox Page”
Back to the tax free window as rates have ticked up a bit. One of my trusts bought:
INDIANA HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY SINGLE FAMILY MORTGAGE REVENUE BONDS 2023 SERIES B-1 (SOCIAL BONDS) (NON-AMT) CUSIP 45505TG21 4.6% due 7/1/2048 @$100.365 YTM 4.55%
rated AAA Fitch/AAA Moody’s This is a new IPO tax free bond that settled 5/11/23. Since all housing bonds are callable anytime the YTC and YTW will mean little as there is a sinking fund starting in 15 years as well.
Do something today that your future self will thank you for. What is more important then to live a healthy live and in peace ✌️
I read an article (grain of salt) about 20+ yr treasury bonds trading at 2std deviations away from where a long term tbond mutual fund is pricing them.
I looked them up and they are around 30-38 cents on the dollar.
Anyone have any thoughts on buying these for cap appreciation? I would think with a couple rate cuts in 12-18 months these can trade back to 60 cents on the dollar? Any and all comments welcome.
sjc – Can you explain this a little more clearly – at least the part about a long term tbond mutual fund pricing the 20+ year Treas 2 std deviations from where they are now???? Are you sure which direction they’re pricing them, currently too high or too low? To me the question would be what category of 20+ year bond would react the most to a couple of rate cuts or more specifically a reversal of trend on interest rates. With the curve as inverted as it is and with the Fed’s primary ability being to influence rate on the short end, I would think long Treasuries would not be the vehicle of choice for your scenario… but remember this is coming from someone who hardly ever plays that game, so consider the source…
SJC, let me present the two most extreme outcomes of buying long term US treasuries.
1) Inflation falls to the point we see deflation. Ignoring US Treasury default risks, the thing you want to buy is zero coupon UST’s. They would have the largest capital gain as long term interest rates collapse.
2) Inflation is sticky and/or gets stickier. Maybe it goes even higher say to 6% to 10% like the late 1970’s. In that case, all long duration UST’s will be crushed. Zero coupons would be the worst hit. You would either want to be totally out of them OR be short them in some form.
Each investor gets to make their forecast/guess about the future path of inflation. This will guide your investment strategy regarding long term/long duration UST’s. There are smart “experts” lining up on both sides of this debate.
Of course all of this has implications for our preferreds/babys.
Anybody else interested in National Rural Utilities? They did $300 M of sub notes ($1,000) last week at 7.125%. They are 30 year notes that reset every five years at 5 Year T plus 353. Currently trading at 101. The 5.5% sub notes are rated BBB+. Sorry, no CUSIP
I would like to see a chart of the 5 year treasury yield vs. inflation to see what that 3.53 kicker generates above in real returns.
They have another sub note of 5.5% F/F at 363 plus 3 M Libor (?) trading around 94. I bought the new issue at a slight premium because I expect the inversion to reverse. I also like the 5 year call protection near 7%.
Insider purchased about 242k of vno preferreds m&n for a child
I did my math pretty quick, but 2,000 shares for their inheritors, of $11.52 is about $23,000 for the link you have. He did purchase more for some more minors on another transaction for about $80,000. Not sure how you calculated 243K ? Keep in mind this is VNO. It is a 2 bil market cap and the sky is falling in NY and office space and this is 1 director. This is not all the directors going all in.
According to insidercow.com, Russell Wight Jr purchased 49,341 shares of VNO at a total price of of $542,292.80, if I did the match correctly. The dates of purchase are from 5/11/2023 to 5/26/2023.
I tried an experiment recently.
I decided to stop making my bed after waking.
Well, the results were outstanding. My team won game 7, my portfolio improved and I collected 90 day old fees from clients yesterday.
I even sold some stocks at the high.
So, Today, I didn’t make my bed.
There’s hope for the “Summer of Newman”
Apologies to Jordan Peterson
You were making it every day, then messed it every night? Wow.
Another plus of not making your bed is all of those toxic fumes and dead skin cells from the prior nights sleep that were lingering under the covers and were trapped when you “made your bed” can escape into the atmosphere. By not crawling back into this cesspool of old sweat and gasses that have been lingering under the covers for 16-18 hours, your body will be able to rejuvenate itself. It has the same effect as “going commando”, skinny dipping or having a full body massage with essential oils. Once I started doing this I was able to change my daily shower to a shower only in months that have 31 days.
FWIW- article on regionals and NYCB:
I added 40% to my holding when it dipped under $6. 😉 Also re-entered NYCB-U in two accounts. I’m good standing pat for a year or two or longer. I think Tim is right, may still be too early, but as markets stabilize, regionals will rise again. Choose wisely.
For those holding SOHOB, SOHON and SOHOO – company restarted dividend payment a few months ago and is now paying 1 of the cumulative unpaid arrearages.
Nice to see this play finally coming together.
But the funny thing is that the market is totally unenthused about it. As of this writing today there were 400 shares of SOHOB traded and not a single one of SOHON or SOHOO.
I can’t help but wonder why the company isn’t tying to buy them back. The price of the D shares is less than par plus accrued interest.
Instead of paying special dividends, wouldn’t a share buyback be a wiser use of cash?
The “Special Dividend” is for arrange of the cumulative dividends outstanding. I think this will still leave 8 dividends in arrears to be paid, roughly $2/sh for each of the issues.
Correction – ~$4/sh for arrearage on issues.
I thought there were a total of 12 deferred dividends ($6ish) for 2020-2022.
It’s a little confusing since this year’s regular dividends are being paid either a month early or 2 months late.
Wouldn’t it be great if SOHO put a preferred dividend table on their website?
12 is the correct number
Under very few situations can the company do this per prospectus (and most that I am aware of have these restrictions, also).
Except as described in the next paragraph, unless full cumulative distributions on the Series D Preferred Stock for all past distribution periods shall have been, or contemporaneously are, declared and paid in cash or declared and a sum sufficient for the payment thereof in cash is set aside for payment, we will not:
declare or pay or set aside for payment of distributions, and we will not declare or make any distribution of cash or other property, directly or indirectly, on or with respect to any shares of our common stock, or any other class or series of Parity Stock or Junior Stock for any period; or
redeem, purchase or otherwise acquire for any consideration, or make any other distribution of cash or other property, directly or indirectly, on or with respect to, or pay or make available any monies for a sinking fund for the redemption of, any common stock, or any other class or series of Parity Stock or Junior Stock.
The foregoing sentence, however, will not prohibit:
distributions payable solely in shares of our common stock or shares of Junior Stock;
the conversion into or exchange for other shares of any class or series of Junior Stock; and
our purchase of Series D Preferred Stock, Parity Stock or Junior Stock pursuant to our charter to the extent necessary to preserve our status as a REIT.
The first distribution on the shares of our Series D Preferred Stock sold in this offering will be paid on July 15, 2019 and will be in the pro-rated amount of $0.41823 per share.
Thanks for the information Grid. That explains a lot.
Fingers crossed on this holding. Definitely not one of my better choices.
Thanks for the note FL_Guy.
Update on US Government Holy-Moly Debt, Interest Expense, and Tax Receipts, and How they Stack Up Against GDP
BANK COMMON STOCK “SHORT %” (5/29/23)
The CUBI preferreds – FWIW, I was just getting around to noticing that CUBI-E and CUBI-F are now set to remain outstanding until at least 9/15 AND if the 9/15 rates were to be set today instead of on or about 6/13, they would go up by about 39 basis points each from 10.22% to 10.61% and 9.84% to 10.23%. They are only callable on 30 days minimum call notice and only on dividend payment dates. They both go X-Div on Tuesday, May 30. for $0.63929075 for E and $0.61514075 per share for F. With the markets closed today (Monday), doesn’t that mean it’s too late to capture the June 15 dividends if you do not already own these?
Yes, since the EX date is Tuesday May 30th it is now too late to buy and capture the declared dividend on CUBI preferred E and F. I’ve always thought someone should offer a subscription service that shows every securities EX date BEFORE the actual EX date, so those that currently own or want to div capture are aware…
The share price will adjust down to reflect the XD date tomorrow, which may or may not exceed the dividend amount.
If the decline is more than divy amount, you can buy it tomorrow morning and be “better off” in absolute cost basis.
If the decline is less, well, you miss out. 🙂
The CUBI preferreds are really interesting. On the most recent conference call management said that they had no intention of calling them. But if they’re actually doing well… shouldn’t they?
(Disclosure: I took a nibble on these a few weeks ago.)
I suppose in this sketchy environment for banks overall the prudent thing for them to do is to preserve cash and/or do not dedicate funds to the retirement of any particular class of outstanding…. with how quickly things can change, you could see where if the crisis came back and CUBI got bit all of a sudden, there’d be all kinds of legal tussles etc, if they happen to call them in just prior to fan hitting events…. So it makes sense to me that they hold back for now and just bite the bullet on the rates they have to pay…. However, what’s interesting is to go back to prior conference before the called in 3 series on 9/15/21. At that time they were extraordinarily cognizant of and mentioned the exact amount that would be added to share price EPS when they retired preferreds…. So, I also have no doubt that calling is on their minds, on the menu, but off the table for now.
2WR or anyone else, any suggestions for what to replace the TANNL, TANNZ, and TANNI with? hoping for a Baby bond from an energy related company.
EP-C work for you? 5 year piece of paper with YTM = 6.96% fully guaranteed by KMI… there’s also the USD ENB 5 year resets with current yield in the 7.70% range that’ve been discussed recently in the Canadian section along with a couple of good non-energy suggestions from the honorable Mr. Grid… CDN denominated ENB reset preferreds have even higher current yields, ENB’s IG rated and EP-C is split rated IG.
LoL 2WR I already have the EBBNF and the EP-PC was looking to add more of the EP but want a lower price. There was another ENB that was in USD but I don’t think I have it. The market has kinda calmed down, a lot of the BB’s on Tim’s list have dropped to the 6% range. Guess I need to wait for another sell off.
I have funds coming in from the DCP-B, COWNL, and the TANNL and Z that need to find a new home
I have a lot of energy, in my portfolio…
There are three Enbridge preferreds that pay QDI in US Currency and are tied to US 5 Year treasuries.
OTC TMX Spread Reset
EBBGF ENB.PR.V 3.14 6/1/23
EBGEF ENB.PF.V 2.82 3/1/24
EBBNF reset ~ a year ago.
I also like a bond from Genesis Energy (GEL) which has pipelines in the Gulf of Mexico and a soda ash plant. The CUSIP is 37185LAK8 and it’s a shorter duration bond (2026) that has a YTM of 8% on dips.
I like the ENB issues, but don’t like having to apply to the IRS to get back the Canadian withholding.
If I get it back — held in my IRA. Anyone know how that will work?
Well said and that makes a lot of sense. Thanks 2WR.
does anyone here with a Schwab account know what they charge a U.S. investor for the following:
1) 5 character OTC symbols for Canadian companies
2) 5 character OTC symbols for other foreign companies
I am finding conflicting information on various sites.
Appreciate your guidance,
Howard, I am assuming you are asking because you have a Schwab account? If so, just place a dummy order in for a $1 a share, and it will show you what they are charging when placing the order. It should show even before you actually place the order.
Hi GB – No, I have a TDA account that is transferring to a Schwab account. I have looked at the Schwab website, but have seen different rates stated on other sites when discussing Schwab. I was confident of the Canadian pricing for a U>S> citizen, but not other foreign 5 character OTC listings. I appreciate the guidance of those that responded to my question. Helps a lot. Howard
Howard the Foreign OTC pricing is below the Canadian OTC pricing. Looks a little beefier in costs for those.
Foreign stock transactions placed on the U.S. over-the-counter (OTC) market9
$50 foreign transaction fee
$75 ($50 foreign transaction fee and a $25 broker assistance fee)
If you post the symbols you are interested in, I can check them. However, Schwab has mostly fixed the discrepancies with TDA, so the commissions should be the same.
Howard, Schwab investing website shows $6.95 per transaction. If you need phone assistance they tack on $25. US OTC issues are $0.00, but CAD OTC are $6.95 online…
$6.95 for some foreign or OTC trades but there doesn’t seem to be much consistency. When commission for most trades was removed I got in the habit of making multiple small trades instead of one big trade. Now i have to pay attention and watch for these fees.
Howard, I have a TDA account which tomorrow becomes a Schwab account. I was paying $4.95 for OTC or 5 character Canadian stocks. I was told pricing will remain the same after the switch. I had $4.95 trades with Scottrade before TDA, so hoping Schwab will honor that as well.
SCHWAB: US issue–
Buy 1 CRLKP @ Limit $20.00, Day
Reinvest Dividends: No
Underlying Quote Information
CENTRAL PARKIN 5.25% PFD
$22.65 / 1 XOTC
Bid/Size 22.65 /3
Day Range 0.0000 – 0.0000
Day Change0 ( 0.00% )
Ask/Size 23.39 /1
52 Week 22.30 – 23.51
Today’s Open 0
Previous Close 22.65
As of 02:49 PM ET, 05/26/2023
Estimated Amount: $20.00
Estimated Exchange Proc Fee: Additional information about Exchange Fees $0.00
Estimated Commission: $6.95
Estimated Total Amount: $26.95
Buy 1 EBBNF @ Limit $17.00, Day
Reinvest Dividends: No
Underlying Quote Information
ENBRIDGE INC. 4% PFD
$19.02 / 1 XOTC
Bid/Size 19.1 /1
Day Range 19.02 – 19.14
Day Change-0.18 ( -0.94% )
Ask/Size 19.48 /1
52 Week 19.00 – 24.48
Today’s Open 19.135
Previous Close 19.2
As of 10:30 AM ET, 05/30/2023
Estimated Amount: $17.00
Estimated Exchange Proc Fee: Additional information about Exchange Fees $0.00
Estimated Commission: $6.95
Estimated Total Amount: $23.95
I appreciate the help from all of those who have responded to my request for guidance on the commissions Schwab charges for OTC/5 character trades , both Canadian and other foreign Nations. ( David, I have no specific
symbol at this time ). Thanks, Howard
My TD account transitioned to Schwab this week and I had new platform questions. I got a broker on the phone today and asked about buying IPOs of preferred stocks on the gray market before they move to an exchange, and the cost. We used ALL-J which is the only recent IPO (5/15).
The temporary grey market symbol is ALL+J and it offered no quote info on the Snap Order Ticket. At the bottom lower left hand of the of the page, there’s also a QUOTE box. When I entered ALL+J, it brought up a quote (bid, ask, etc. ) and a BUY icon.
The broker instructed me to use that BUY icon and set up an order for one share and then click Review Order. He indicated that if there was any issue with the security, it wouldn’t advance to Review Order page (for whatever reason, GAINL wouldn’t work). There was none for ALL+J, it advanced and indicated the commission was zero.
I don’t know about your Canadian and foreign companies but these bread crumbs might lead you to the answer.
Thank you for guidance. I did learn from your comment that after years of using a (-) symbol to indicate a preferred issue, I will now have to use a (+) symbol. ALL-J now ALL+J. Might take me a few months to remember after being on automatic for over two decades. One advantage of Schwab is that there are two offices within 30 miles of my residence. I may have to make a visit. Thanks. Howard
couple of added comments on schwab
-at schwab.com, the “+” works sometimes (ALL+J). Other times its “/PR” (ALL/PRJ, and on streetsmartedge its “p” (ALLpJ).
-There are a host of “buy” systems, and sometimes one works when others won’t. The most consistent for new issues is the little quote box at the bottom of a schwab.com page you mentioned. There is also the “all-in-one” trade ticket, and the snap ticket on schwab.com. They usually start working last (but not always). Streetsmartedge is completely separate (its run by a vendor), and sometimes works first, sometimes last.
-If you can’t get a buy system to work, call schwab. If you get a good person, they will place the order for you and waive commissions, so long as the issue is in their systems (see next item)
-Note that nobody can trade a new issue at schwab until it is set up in their systems. They don’t do that automatically – they wait until a client (a) complains that an issue isn’t on the site, and (b) makes enough noise that they actually set up the issue. They usually try to deflect clients (“it will probably be working soon”), but you have to keep after them until they get “trade support” involved to set up the issue (usually takes a couple of hours. I have been through this on dozens of new issues, and its always the same song and dance.
-when you call about a new issue, have the cusip. they are lost without it. (Some are even lost with it…) Funny thing is that most of the good support people use many of the same tools we do, like quantumonline.
I just use SSEdge chat and ask them to add the symbol to both schwab.com and SSEdge. Less effort than calling, and I don’t have to give a CUSIP.
Money Market Funds…
I need money for a house purchase. Cringe when I have to withdraw 5% money market funds, haven’t seen those in years.
Think on the bright side Martin. You will cringe less doing that than taking on a 7% mortgage, ha.
What good Money Market Funds are available on TDAmeritrade?
you’ll have to sign in to get this but try https://invest.ameritrade.com/grid/p/site#r=jPage/https://research.ameritrade.com/grid/wwws/research/mutualfunds/families?c_name=invest_VENDOR
Only the Schwab MMFs are available on TDA, so you can look at the Schwab page:
SWVXX is near 5%, VMFXX over 5%. or I just transfer loose cash to my Fidelity account and pick up 4.75% until i find a use for it.
TANNZ, I, AND L – I see where all three have now officially been delisted. I wonder if some of the brokers such as TDA will take the same course they have on COWNL and now mark these to zero as well??
You might have 30 days that they will be listed at the old price, after that the price is “stale”. That is how Raymond James and some other brokers have handled it. Since these will be redeemed in less than 30 days, there may not be a period of $0 value.
This is from Fidelity on May 24. (for TANNL)
The below security was affected by a Full Call.
Description: BP 8.00000% 12/15/2029 PFD
Redemption Price: 0.00
Redemption Principal: $0.00
Call Date: 2023-06-15
Good Times: I bought JP MORGAN CHASE BANK NA CUSIP 46656MCT6
New issue CD maturing 9/6/2024 @5.50% pays semi annually. Remember when many here said they would sell their soul for 5% CD’s in their portfolios; I do. The largest positions I have bought this calendar year are US Treasuries and CD’s. Let the good times roll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj-b3fWrY3w
What you think about you bring about, I am Azure
And for you fellow dinosaurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM9yYL6BD-4&ab_channel=1SweetDreamz3
Well I don’t think it was playing in the 70’s on KHJ when Machine Gun Kelly was DJing and I grew up listening to.
Azure this is a callable correct? The yield is getting juicier, but I want them to start being less stingy and give me an 18 month to 5 year, 5.5% noncallable, now.
Hey Gird, yes this 5.50% JP Morgan CD is callable in 6 months at par. I’ve been creating a CD and Treasury ladder out about 5 years that I’m very happy with. I’m sure you also know I have a tax free (primarily insured) bond ladder out about 20ish years as well that I don’t even look at because I will never sell these bonds before call or maturity. The risk level in my portfolio is so low now and my goal was to take out the vast majority of any volatility out. While I’m traveling or trying to buy more land to commercially grow trees 🌲, I don’t always have time to watch the markets and my objective is not to lose the kingdom. I keep seeing more issues with preferreds when the underlying company gets taken over or they run into trouble. The environment for risk is not great IMHO and getting north of 5% on CD’s and/or money market is amazing. Be well and take care of yourself ✌️
Question on the callable CD’s – with the preferreds we know there is a cost to reissuing a new preferred at a lower rate when rates are dropping so that the issuer will need to achieve perhaps a .5 to1% rate reduction in the new issue to make it worthwhile. How does that work with CD’s? Do they typically get called and reissued with a slight drop in rates? The reinvestment risk with callable CDs seems very high.
Banks don’t have the underwriting fees that preferred stocks do so they can call on a small drop but back when I bought them they typically waited for more than a few points down. Of course they have other considerations depending on where their money is. Since banks have money in so many places they don’t necessarily have to re-issue when making a call.
Anyone know any details about brokered CD fees – do the brokers typically get a single fee up front only? Or do they get a stream of income as long as the CD is outstanding? Any idea about how much of a fee the brokerages get for being the bank’s middleman?
Related to that – does anyone know how much SaveBetter takes as a commission / fee from the banks on their platform?
I purchase CD through Fidelity and Merrill often. The PAR is always $1000 ($100 possible for some offerings on Fidelity); there is no premium, transaction or commission charged when purchased as IPO. The secondary market for CDs is spotty – I always hold to maturity.
Azure, thanks for posting this.
I can find it at E*TRADE, TDA and Schwab, but only E*TRADE offered it to me; with the other two I had to search specifically for the CUSIP.
Which broker did you use to buy it (just comparing notes)?
Hi there, this 5.50% CD was at Vanguard today. It’s the highest yielding CD I’ve seen in quite a while there. I do not believe the Fed is done raising rates. They may wind up pausing this upcoming month, but I think there are just too many signs that point to further raises from the Fed. Such interesting times we are all living in, Azure
Bur Davis, at TDA, under new CDs, you may want to scroll down and click on “Show All” box. TDA ran out of the JPM 5.5% CD and it could not be found for a few minutes. But it can be found now as it is being offered again.
Thanks for the pointer, GnG, and thanks again to AB for posting
Curious as to why this would have been issued ( no call, no maturity):
BACRP Bank of America Corp. 7.00% Series B Cumulative Perpetual Preferred Stock liquidation preference $100 per share, Not redeemable at the issuer’s option, and with no stated maturity. Cumulative distributions of 7.00% per annum.
last price 229.95 with 200.00 bid 229.95 ask Weird
Can be bought at Schwab.
Looks like IPO was in ’97, Pink sheets in ’21 – also quoted on Nasdaq
Maybe an old Merrill?
Originally a NationsBank preferred. About 7,100 shares remain outstanding. Other shares were, presumably, acquired by the issuer or its successors over 25 years and retired (original issue was 35,045 shares). Volatile action in BACRP over the past six to 12 months. Share price over the past year has been as high as $360 (2% return) and as low as $112 (6.7% return). There’s been a lot of speculation about price movement, none of which has proven true, yet! No tender offer. No single entity announced an intent to buy all outstanding shares. Mystifying! One of the few cumulative bank issues that is non-callable. It’s a forever annuity, as long as B of A remains solvent,.
Originally a NationsBank preferred. About 7,100 shares remain outstanding. Other shares were, presumably, acquired by the issuer or its successors over 25 years and retired (original issue was 35,045 shares). Volatile action in BACRP over the past six to 12 months. Share price over the past year has been as high as $360 (2% return) and as low as $112 (6.7% return). There’s been a lot of speculation about price movement, none of which has proven true, yet! No tender offer. No single entity announced an intent to buy all outstanding shares. Mystifying! One of the few cumulative bank issues that is non-callable. It’s a forever annuity, as long as B of A remains solvent.
Sorry about the double post. The “Post Comment” prompt didn’t respond but, apparently, the post occurred
BACRP was a good flipper earlier in the year in tiny volumes. I started buying with the intention of holding it, but the capital gain temptation was just too great to resist.
I never managed to collect a divi, either.
I was buying in the $150-170 range, selling for about $40-50 a share more each flip. Got completely out at $300 last month (missed the $360 peak) and haven’t been able to get back in. Wish I could have been trading a thousand shares at a time, but the volume just wasn’t there.
I am hoping it will drop again, but I am not holding my breath.
I don’t get it. Why would anybody pay this when non-callable BAC-L is yielding 6.31%.
Don’t know why people are paying $250-360 for it. Crazy (to me).
I started buying in tiny quantities at around $160 as it was falling from $360. I was hoping it would fall below $120 (it was below $100 for a while last year). Never got there, so I never had a lot of shares.
I still have a low-ball bid in, but I am not holding my breath.
Private, I got to trade maybe 30-40 shares maybe 4-5 times early year around $130 and selling about $180-220. But I blew it about 2 months ago. A 100 shares at $143 were offered and I bid $137. 9 shares were sent to me but somebody snatched those 100 shares. By the end of the same day somebody bought those or a different 100 share lot at over $200. I sold mine puny 9 shares the same day at $210. I blew it! It does seem like a game of chicken though as its got higher and I wont play the game here. BTW, I dont know who is buying or if its a bot gone astray. Or if they are the same shares ping ponging back and forth. I did notice the share count has dropped a bit. But those could be tenders and not BAC buying them in open market as it wasnt a lot.