AmTrust Baby Bonds To Trade OTC

AmTrust Financial baby bonds will begin to trade on the OTC exchange in the next couple of days (of course just after we removed them from our baby bond listing).

The 7.50% subordinated notes will trade under the ticker AFFT.

The 7.25% subordinated notes will trade under the ticker AFFS.

Of course all of the perpetual preferreds are now trading on the OTC as well.

We would caution folks on buying/holding these shares. While those with experience in these types of items (delisted stocks) may understand the risk there is a huge difference being listed on the OTC market as compared to being on the NYSE. There are few-if any regulations on what companies must “file” in terms of financials to be listed on the OTC–it is the ‘wild west’ so to speak.

Long time readers will remember Glacier Water Services and their trust preferred shares–these shares were delisted from the NYSE because of the lack of public shareholders. Shares did just fine (actually great) and eventually the shares were redeemed at $25. BUT AMTRUST IS RUN BY SNAKES and you simply can’t trust them to file any financials whatsoever-in fact they have no plans to provide public financials.

22 thoughts on “AmTrust Baby Bonds To Trade OTC”

  1. Glacier Water is an example of an issue that was right to delist. Tiny company, no longer public. The outstanding # of preferred was tiny, too.

    Amtrust is a 100% different case. It’s a billion $ worth of shares they delisted. And deregistered. This is all done so that can operate from the shadow, without scrutiny. In my very long investing life I don’t recall a more outrageous act by a corporate management on something this size.

    For once, I hope the lawsuits fly.

    If the SEC and the Courts don’t step in, it’s a failure of the so-called protections afforded to shareholders.

    Yikes!

  2. I told everyone here that I would update you on Robinhood’s 3% money market fund. I got my emailed January’s statement and didn’t see any interest payment; this was a message that the Robinhood representative just sent me after I inquired why I didn’t see any interest for the entire month:
    Lamar (Robinhood Help Center)
    Feb 14, 11:57 AM PST

    Hi Nomad,

    Thanks for reaching out. Robinhood hasn’t launched a cash management program yet. We anticipate launching a new program in 2019 and are still figuring out all of the details.
    While we wish we were able to answer your specific questions, we don’t have the information available just yet. We’re still in the process of figuring out what our new cash management program will be and will be ready to share more details soon. Thank you so much for your continued interest and patience while we work to provide you with the best experience possible.
    Sincerely,
    Lamar
    In other word YOU HAVE GOTTEN NOTHING AND YOU WILL LIKE IT…
    Live and learn, Nomad

    1. Hope you’re in the process of closing the account now, Nomad. Synchrony on line – 2.2% for savings, one year CD at 2.80%, FDIC insured. Just can’t link to a brokerage account so you have to bounce it through checking first.

      1. CIT Bank 2.45% Savings and I think I even saw Citibank with a 2.36% savings rate available.

    2. Sorry to hear Nomad, hopefully these scammer do not get impunity. They do deserve some kind of award for that insincere and flowery reply. What a load of BS.

  3. On Tuesday February 12, 2019 the US national debt topped $22.01 trillion and increasing every moment http://www.usdebtclock.org Since estimated 2018 GDP is $20.1 trillion, that makes the national debt 110% of GDP. Basically we are a banana republic but we don’t get no bananas. We just get the peels and more debt… I know, I know, debt doesn’t matter to ANYONE or ANY country that can print their own fiat currency.
    Time flies over us but leaves it’s shadow behind, Nomad

      1. Alpha 8 et al. Talk about currency and economic manipulation! We are suppose to be striving for a “free market” economy and the Fed would be constantly in the micromanagement game of our dollar and the very foundation of our economy. I’m sorry I read his column before I have to fall asleep.
        In Latin we say… Argentum et aurum comparanda sunt; this translates to Silver and gold must be bought.
        Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy night, Nomad

  4. Hi Tim,
    I picked up on Monday and got a great price, “at least for now”. I actually made a comment on your original thread long after the issue was beaten to death. Actually the preferreds were also trading higher than what I sold. I consider myself very lucky that the price I paid for the baby bonds were not that much more than the non cumulative preferreds. Of course, this is still a risky issue, not that much “tamer” than CBL. Orphans of a private company vs. Mall retails with tons of tenants filing for bankruptcy. Because the market seem to believe that the Feds are not going to raise the rate anytime soon or even at all, all the risky (EBITDA based with leverage ) issues all coming back very nicely. I hope none of these would fall like Navio Maritime, a company which no one believes is salvageable.
    BTW, I know that Gridbird is in Reno and the beautiful Sierra Nevada which I used to visit often when I was in San Francisco during 1970’s to early 80’s. I want to thank him for SCE-L. I sold my SCE-L all of it and bought back SCE-K (5.75%), taking very nice profit on L and seeing K is climbing even higher percentage points. On Monday, many were chasing after L and I bought K right away when it was “under appreciated”. Like you said, there were few traders who seem to lack basic Math. This great for us. Thank you, Tim.

    1. Thanks johnKCal — I forgot Grid was off hopefully have a little fun skiing and sitting in the hot tub.

      I’ll let you play in the arena with AmTrust–me I can’t deal with these types of issues.

      1. On Fidelity, Schwab and Vanguard brokerage the 7.5% baby bond is actually AFSIP, 7.25% is AFSIB. I bought AFSIP about 10% below today’s close. The symbols for the preferreds follow exactly the way you had posted, up about 10% too. All trading $12+. Of course, I wonder how it would fare once the dividend or interest get ex dividend around early or mid March. I plowed only the proceeds from what I sold perhaps kept $50 or $100 or so, remembering the Cat Insurance biz is very risky. California auto liability, if the policy is sold at rock bottom also could back fire. Amazing that CBL and CBL-D all went up with a mixed quarterly report plus a tongue in cheek article by Jussie, who now has his own PRO service Landlord something. Rubicon associates also wrote on CBL, PEI, WPG and CLNY preferreds. If I do not own CBL-D, it would be no brainer to go for WPG-H. I have tons of CLNY-H, 7.5% from IPO, when I thought that this Company (Colony) has so much free cash. Then it started to leverage like a madman.

      2. Tim, its been an unmitigated disaster of a trip..Already back in Reno and heading home early tomorrow. Weather totally uncooperative.. Put it this way it was supposed to be a 5 nite stay at Tahoe…I wound up being, One night in Stl, 2 in Tahoe, and 2 in Reno bookended around Tahoe. Skied one hour the entire trip, and it took 35 hours just to get there instead of 7..Three of those hotel nights were bought online day of…Paid for 5 Tahoe days and only got 2…What a trip!

          1. Citadel, Our stay was for Sun to Fri. Lifts were basically closed today with wind and it was raining. Same tommorrow. Couldnt risk not getting off mountain Friday morning for flight that day. Yesterdays ski trip was a waste with all the lift closings. Couldnt get to slopes we can ski. Mother nature won this trip. A disaster! Time to cut losses and head home.

            1. Yeah, the weather forecast for this week, and part of next, is stormy and rainy weather with high winds. The weather guys call it an “atmospheric river”, more water in the clouds than the Mississippi empties into the Gulf in a day.

              We had one like this 2 years ago, and my backyard flooded over, had to spend a big sum to repair and replace clogged drainage pipes. Damage was extensive throughout my neighborhood with downed fences, trees and flooding.

              The weather won the poker hand this time, Grid. Sorry the trip did not turn out well.

              1. Inspudget you know the weather then, lol. Well we it could have been worse. We had to pay 300 bucks to change flight and leave early, but my girlfriend won that money tonight at Grand Sierra so that cut the losses some, lol. She just wants to get home…

                1. Nice…and you get the full experience of the Reno gambling and bars! I chose to ‘ski’ down the lower level stairs and live in a hole with that gd groundhog here in StL and remodel the bathroom. I’ll seek the altitude this summer Co into NW.
                  PS: If anyone is even interested in this stuff anymore we are going to the Dead at Folsom Field in Boulder again this July 4 weekend and have an extra double room booked on the cheap out on I-25 about 15 miles east. Nice weekend with a two night Gen Ad ticket. Disclosure: Not a waver of the Green Flag. Then off to altitudes.
                  (I don’t think I should be starting an alt-retirement packages site soon. )

                  1. Joel, you were wise staying home…We are delayed in Reno airport now and delaying with bad LV weather. Might make it to Stl by 1:30 am if flight doesnt get delayed again. I am through with traveling for a while….Bad trip! We came home early trying to cut losses to avoid the Stl bad weather that you know is coming your way!

                    1. Wow sorry to hear about that awful trip Grid! You were smart to cut your losses and leave early. We were once stuck up there in a blizzard that lasted a few days. Not fun!

                    2. Just keep going on trips it averages out now that you’ve had one of these. As the saying goes, “once you realize the futility of Life, travel is the last hope…”
                      Weather: Clear until tom late, you’ll be sleepin in yoiur own bed soon!

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